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Honestly for cool Soviet kinda anti-industrialist vibe movies you should just watch Stalker by Tarkovsky. It’s probably the coolest movie.
The other one I like to compare is: in the decades that the Berlin Wall - the ultimate symbol of eeeevil gommunist authoritian totalitarianism - existed, fewer people were killed attempting to cross the wall than were murdered by a single US bomb that landed on a girls’ school in Iran in a single day.
I do not know the number of Palestinians that have been murdered by the IOF just for approaching the intentionally vague “yellow line” since the “ceasefire” months ago, but I’m certain it’s higher than the Berlin Wall fatalities.
Children are currently 50 percent of the population in the Gaza strip if I’m correct. That should tell you more than enough how bad things are.
Israel is testament to how the West fooled everyone.
I’m seeing numbers between 140 and 327 people having been killed at the Berlin wall and 153 people at the girls’ school. That that’s besides the point.
I’d say that suffering isn’t measured in fatalities, neither is mortality. Groups can be oppressed resulting in enormous suffering, but with relatively few fatalities as a result. See for example the Taliban and women. There is also the factor of intentionality. The US likely didn’t intentionally bomb a school, but the wall was carefully designed.
Nonetheless, the reason the Iran war started is of course exceptionally dumb than compared to the other wars that the US started. So your point probably still stands. Sacrificing lives for petty reasons is evil.
The US likely didn’t intentionally bomb a school
They accidentally bombed 600 schools in under a month? https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/us-israeli-attacks-damage-over-85-000-civilian-sites-in-iran-red-crescent-chief-says/3878434
And they accidentally bombed the school that just so happened to be over-represented by the children of navy officers they threatened the day before?
180 were killed in the American bombing of Minab school.
AND WORSE
That was not the only school bombed.
Just for your information: That “Chernobyl killed less than 100 people” is wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_due_to_the_Chernobyl_disaster
It is also totally unhonestly framed in order to trick you. “less than 100 people died in 1986”, but it ignores that most deaths will be due to cancer a few years later. So fuck this guy spreading propaganda bullshit.
It is not wrong. As I have already posted, although the 2005 report of the Chernobyl Forum concluded with expected 4000 excess deaths after the event itself, the used model (LNT) is highly contested and with the dosages most people were exposed to not useful.
It is expected that all in all fewer than 100 people will die because of chernobyl (including the ~50 people killed by the explosion and the ASR right after it).
The Rational View podcast with Dr. Al Scott: Gerry Thomas and the UNSCEAR reports
Link to episode: https://therationalview.podbean.com/e/gerry-thomas-and-the-unscear-reports/
Link to media: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/r8t8zh/TRV-GerryThomas.mp3
fuck off germ
in the end estimated 50-60.000 people died from cancer related to Chernobyl.
The estimate of 50,000–60,000 Chernobyl cancer deaths is a widely cited, worst-case projection, but it is crucial to understand that this figure is not a factual count. It is a theoretical calculation derived from the linear no-threshold (LNT) model, a framework that is fundamentally flawed and inappropriate for assessing the health impact of low-dose radiation exposure.
- 29 relief workers died from Acute Radiation Sickness (ARS) shortly after the accident.
- As of 2005, only fewer than 50 deaths were directly linked to the radiation exposure from the accident itself. This is the most solid figure based on actual evidence.
Again, because my other comment is not visible to many of you:
The estimate of 50,000–60,000 Chernobyl cancer deaths is a widely cited, worst-case projection, but it is crucial to understand that this figure is not a factual count. It is a theoretical calculation derived from the linear no-threshold (LNT) model, a framework that is fundamentally flawed and inappropriate for assessing the health impact of low-dose radiation exposure.
- 29 relief workers died from Acute Radiation Sickness (ARS) shortly after the accident.
- As of 2005, only fewer than 50 deaths were directly linked to the radiation exposure from the accident itself. This is the most solid figure based on actual evidence.
A total of up to four thousand people could eventually die of radiation exposure from the Chernobyl nuclear power plant (NPP) accident nearly 20 years ago, an international team of more than 100 scientists has concluded.
As of mid-2005, however, fewer than 50 deaths had been directly attributed to radiation from the disaster, almost all being highly exposed rescue workers, many who died within months of the accident but others who died as late as 2004.
The new numbers are presented in a landmark digest report, “Chernobyl’s Legacy: Health, Environmental and Socio-Economic Impacts,” just released by the Chernobyl Forum. The digest, based on a three-volume, 600-page report and incorporating the work of hundreds of scientists, economists and health experts, assesses the 20-year impact of the largest nuclear accident in history. The Forum is made up of 8 UN specialized agencies, including the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), World Health Organization (WHO), United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN-OCHA), United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation (UNSCEAR), and the World Bank, as well as the governments of Belarus, Russia and Ukraine.
https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/chernobyl-true-scale-accident
What about Dow chemical, or Monsanto?
The point isn’t that Chernobyl was more dangerous. The point is that the tweet isn’t being honest.
The tweet is being honest. The Numbers are correct.
If interested: The Rational View podcast with Dr. Al Scott: Gerry Thomas and the UNSCEAR reports
Link to episode: https://therationalview.podbean.com/e/gerry-thomas-and-the-unscear-reports/
Link to media: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/r8t8zh/TRV-GerryThomas.mp3
You can’t see the other reply so:
A total of up to four thousand people could eventually die of radiation exposure from the Chernobyl nuclear power plant (NPP) accident nearly 20 years ago, an international team of more than 100 scientists has concluded.
As of mid-2005, however, fewer than 50 deaths had been directly attributed to radiation from the disaster, almost all being highly exposed rescue workers, many who died within months of the accident but others who died as late as 2004.
The new numbers are presented in a landmark digest report, “Chernobyl’s Legacy: Health, Environmental and Socio-Economic Impacts,” just released by the Chernobyl Forum. The digest, based on a three-volume, 600-page report and incorporating the work of hundreds of scientists, economists and health experts, assesses the 20-year impact of the largest nuclear accident in history. The Forum is made up of 8 UN specialized agencies, including the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), World Health Organization (WHO), United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN-OCHA), United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation (UNSCEAR), and the World Bank, as well as the governments of Belarus, Russia and Ukraine.
https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/chernobyl-true-scale-accident
The other reply that you can’t see:
The tweet is being honest. The Numbers are correct.
If interested: The Rational View podcast with Dr. Al Scott: Gerry Thomas and the UNSCEAR reports
Link to episode: https://therationalview.podbean.com/e/gerry-thomas-and-the-unscear-reports/
Link to media: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/r8t8zh/TRV-GerryThomas.mp3
Thank you! I didn’t think about defederation. o.O
You didn’t see my reply elsewhere in the thread. The tweet is dishonest because it’s deliberately excluding the deaths from long term health issues in the Chernobyl while including them in the Bhopal numbers.
I already figured out for myself that Chernobyl was still less deadly than Bhopal and I never claimed otherwise.
Maybe I’m interpreting things wrong but the study is counting the long term health issues in the 50 total deaths, 20 years after the accident is long term no?
I got lost in the sauce a bit. The tweet is still comparing different statics. Chernobyl had less then 100 deaths in the first year, but thousands more deaths from cancer in the following year. Those were excluded from mention.
Bhopal had 16,000 deaths in the first year and 500,000 “nonfatally poisoned” casualties. Those almost certainty lead to premature deaths and if we’re including those, we also need to be including the long term cancer deaths from Chernobyl.
The study is saying that the projection is 4k but they can only attribute with confidence 50 death related with the disaster.
many who died within months of the accident but others who died as late as 2004.
Late as 2004 is saying that they are counting the following years
Literally whataboutism
The point is the OP screenshot being disingenuous.
Your point can also be true
I mean what about ww2? All terrible disasters, but the concept was “chernobyl was not small made bigger by capitalism for fearmongering, it was huge all along”. Then we can also discuss how terrible and how many victims capitalism brought, just don’t base it on a lie or you’ll just loose the trust of other people. Whataboutism doesn’t help either, you are deflecting when you already have a lot of other potential arguments. Be better.
Capitalism has killed over 100 million people directly over the last 100 years.
Every year ~10 million people starve to death or die of easily preventable disease. These deaths are directly attributable to capitalism, as the global system of economics and distribution. It simply isn’t profitable to the capitalists to prevent these deaths.
So your number is way short. Every ten years capitalism kills 100 million just from starvation and disease.
Thank you for the correction.
I feel like this is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. You should compare Chernobyl to Fukushima and 3 mile island. All of these accidents involved gross incompetence, but the incompetence at Chernobyl was the grossest for any large nuclear disaster in history.
When people think of a stereotypical ghoulish corporation that would melt their workers into glue after they collapsed from working 50 years in a mine for scrip they are thinking about Union Carbide.
It’s because of the potential. Had Chernobyl gone extra wrong (eg had the people in charge there not responded correctly), millions could be hurt, and not just in the Soviet Union. It also dominated the news for months in Europe, with the memory of having to throw away certain homegrown vegetables due to radiation being engraved into the collective consciousness.
Additionally the Bhopal catastrophe happened to Indians and people in the West generally care little for them, due to racism and distance.
No, it’s because it made excellent propaganda, lol.
So Fukushima was anti Japanese propaganda all along?
Do you think that?
There can be many reasons for a thing to occur. I think you’re both right
Sure, because it was genuinely bad and public Soviet denials regarding the severity of what had occurred didn’t exactly help their image.
Bhopal was in the news for a while. It was the lead story on the nightly news for at least a week. I think nuclear accidents have more staying power due to fear of the unknown. The movie The China Syndrome came out a few years before and many thought they were witnessing the end of the world.
I knew about Bhopal, but I didn’t know it was Union Carbide. Fun fact: Union Carbide ran the Oak Ridge enrichment site for the Manhattan project. They also created the largest American industrial disaster with the Hawk’s Nest tunnel disaster. It killed over 700 miners from silicosis by ignoring safety practices. They were bought by Dow Chemicals in 2001. I guess Dow didn’t like the competition in the “be a horrible chemical company” market.
I mean, I feel like it’s at least in part because one of the two still has an exclusion zone today…
Reading up on it though, Bhopal definitely should have one
It’s also comparing deaths from Chernobyl, but limiting it to 1986 to deaths from Bhopal, both immediate and long term.
The long term estimates from Chernobyl are debated and still look way lower compared to Bhopal, but the tweet isn’t being completely honest.
While it says in the tweet “in 1986” there are no more than 100 deaths expected from chernobyl. Around 50 were killed at the accident, and around a dozen more in the years after. As of 2005 fewer than 50 deaths were directly linked to the radiation exposure.from the accident itself.
Dr. Geraldine Thomas explained this pretty good in “The Rational Veiw”-Podcast, linked above. If we hat the same cancer-incidence by radioactivity related exclusion zones but with particulate matter, half the cities of europe would have to be closed off in summer.
Everyone working with the seveso directive in the EU/EEA. Its widely more know than the poster give credit for among the technical side of the regulators
Chernobyl could be argued to be worse, at least from a theory perspective, because in an idealized Soviet/Communist system where the working classes are actually looking out for worker interests, the plant operators would have known about RBMK reactor flaws (and probably also would have built a containment building like Western reactors have) which likely would have prevented the disaster. At some point there was some breakdown for whatever reason that prevented this. On the other hand, at Bhopal, there was essentially no hope of worker control at all because it’s built within a capitalist system. Profit at the expense of lives is the expected outcome in this system.
tl;dr, it would be nice to see Communists et. al. hold their societies to a higher standard than simply not being as statistically bad as capitalism
Chernobyl is remembered because it had real political effects.
I give up, you guys win. There is no source of actual truth, we’re all fucked. Truth is just an illusion. Facts don’t matter any more.
Non-capitalist propaganda is also effective, I don’t see what this has to do with socialism.
Mistakes in socialist countries are magnified and mythologized, while mistakes in capitalist countries are erased and whitewashed.
For sure, that makes sense. I guess I was just responding to the title, it’s a useless statement.
