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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml to Socialism@lemmy.ml · 2 years ago

Living in the west

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Living in the west

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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml to Socialism@lemmy.ml · 2 years ago
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  • Zyansheep@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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    2 years ago

    How about not ending capitalism, but trying as hard as possible to anticipate and balance the negative effects of wealth concentration with the overall beneficial effects of competative innovation?

    • APassenger@lemmy.one
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      2 years ago

      Socialism sounds good to me…

      • Radicalized@lemmy.one
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        2 years ago

        Socialism is not communism-lite. Communism is socialism.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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          2 years ago

          To be exact, socialism is a transitional stage between capitalism and communism where the working class holds power in society, but vestigial capitalist relations still exist.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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      2 years ago

      Competitive innovation doesn’t require capitalism, while wealth concentration is literally the point of the system.

      • Zyansheep@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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        2 years ago

        Can you point to an example of a socialist country (by your definition of socialist) that is superior in a certain industry innovation-wise compared to a capitalist (by your definition of capitalist) country?

        Also, Idk what you define capitalism as, but I’m pretty sure meriam webster doesn’t call it “a system for concentrating wealth”. That might be a common result for many types of capitalism, but it is not the defining characteristic.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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          2 years ago

          China, Laos, Cuba, and Vietnam are all socialist countries. The definition is pretty simple. In a socialist country the working class holds power, and the core economy of the country is either publicly or cooperatively owned. This is the case for all of these countries.

          Capitalism is a system where the class of people who own capital hold power in society and make it work in their own interest. The dynamics of capitalism necessitate capital concentration through competition. Companies compete with one another on the open market, and companies that succeed grow. As the companies grow, it takes increasingly higher initial investment in order to compete with these companies. A scrappy startup is not going to be able to take on Amazon which enjoys economies of scale, massive supply chains, and brand recognition. Over time, you end up with consolidation of all the capital in the hands of a few capitalists.

          This is also illustrated mathematically in the game of monopoly. Everyone starts in a perfectly even position, and over time all the assets will end up being concentrated with a single player through the dynamics of the game. This is the defining characteristic of the system.

          • Zyansheep@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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            2 years ago

            I understand how capitalist competition often ends in monopoly, at least until the government steps in with anti-trust or there is significant innovation to undermine the monopoly. I wouldn’t say this is the defining characteristic of capitalism because I use the word to describe countries that aren’t total free markets because there aren’t any countries that have totally free markets.

            You didn’t answer my question though, you just gave a list of countries (some of which, like China, I question are socialist at all). Are there any countries where “working class holds power, and the core economy of the country is either publicly or cooperatively owned” that have out-innovated countries that use capitalism?

            What is the primary force that spurs innovation in a socialist country and how does it compare to the force that spurs innovation in a capitalist country?

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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              2 years ago

              The necessarily government represents the interests of the class that holds power. In a capitalist society that happens to be the capital owning class. This is why you see laws and regulations that inhibit monopolization erode over time. For example, US has very strong worker protections and laws ensuring fair competition after the New Deal was passed. All of that was then dismantled, and here’s what a recent study analyzing many decades of US policy has to say about the state of things today:

              What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.

              You didn’t answer my question though, you just gave a list of countries (some of which, like China, I question are socialist at all). Are there any countries where “working class holds power, and the core economy of the country is either publicly or cooperatively owned” that have out-innovated countries that use capitalism?

              I did answer your question though. All these countries, including China, are socialist because it’s the working class that holds power. We can look at the tangible outcomes in China such as poverty reduction programs that simply aren’t happening in countries where capitalists are in charge. So, we don’t have to take their word for it, we can just look at the outcomes. Let’s look at China in a bit more detail though.

              First, it’s worth noting that 87.6% of young Chinese identify with Marxism, and the party has 95 million members. I think it’s reasonable to assume that people of a country where vast majority of young people identify as Marxist understand what sort of a political system their country has.

              All the essential industry is state owned, and capitalism is only allowed to exist within special economic zones. However, even Marx argued that capitalism is likely a necessary stage for developing productive resources needed for socialism and communism to be possible. Arguing that capitalism being allowed in China makes it capitalist would be akin to arguing that having social services such as public healthcare makes Canada communist.

              One simple test to consider is that China doesn’t suffer from regular crashes seen under capitalism. An inherent contradiction within capitalism is that the capitalists always want to cut pay for their employees to minimize the costs, while they also require consumers with enough spending power to consume the commodities they produce. This is why capitalism results in regular economic crashes when wages fall below the point where consumption can keep up with the rate of commodity production. At that point you end up with overproduction and a crash. If China was capitalist then it should be experiencing these kinds of crashes regularly just like actual capitalist nations are in the Western world.

              And a related point is that quality of life in China continues to steadily improve and the government is actively working on doing things like eliminating poverty, creating public infrastructure, providing healthcare, housing, food, and education for all citizens. Chinese government practically eliminated poverty, and in fact China is the only place in a world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening. If we take China out of the equation poverty actually increased in real terms:

              If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.

              The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.

              Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it’s the most populous country on the planet. Social mobility in China is actually higher than it is in US. The opposite is currently happening in capitalist countries. In particular, it’s instructive to look at the differences in development between China and India with both having started roughly in the same place and having comparable population.

              Another indicator is that China used more concrete in 3 years than US in all of 20th century, they built 27,000km of high speed rail in a decade. This is another thing we don’t see happening under capitalism because capitalists don’t see significant profit from infrastructure investments. This is the main reason US infrastructure is currently crumbling.

              Finally, 90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. This sort of home ownership is not seen in capitalist countries where housing has become a commodity.

              What is the primary force that spurs innovation in a socialist country and how does it compare to the force that spurs innovation in a capitalist country?

              People wanting to do interesting things because they’re curious and intelligent, The same force that has driven innovation throughout history. Are you seriously not to be able to imagine having any sort of hobby or interest that’s not profit driven. Why do you think millions of people around the world create innovative open source projects without any profit motive. You’re literally using an innovative federated platform built by volunteers to ask this inane question.

              • Zyansheep@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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                2 years ago

                Arguing that capitalism being allowed in China makes it capitalist would be akin to arguing that having social services such as public healthcare makes Canada communist.

                I’d totally argue that having public healthcare, publicly-owned infrastructure, makes Canada or the US socialist lol. Technically the “workers” don’t directly own the particular publicly-owned means of production, but they definitely do have a say in how it is run through their vote.

                Anyway…

                Given that you say China is socialist (which seems insane given it is literally an authoritarian state: the workers don’t own the means of production, the state does!), my original question:

                “Can you point to an example of a socialist country (by your definition of socialist) that is superior in a certain industry innovation-wise compared to a capitalist (by your definition of capitalist) country?”

                Seems kind of stupid given that China is definitely leading in certain industries compared to more “capitalist” (US, EU, etc.) nations. (Mainly manufacturing industries).

                So I’ll ask a different question.

                Given all the pro-china arguments you’ve listed. Would you want to live there if you got the chance? And if so/if not, why?

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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                  2 years ago

                  If you’d argue that then you don’t understand what socialism is. Socialism is a transitional state between capitalism and communism where workers have taken power in society, but vestigial capitalist economic relations still remain. The working class does not hold power in Canada or even have any meaningful participation in politics. Canadians are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them.

                  Given that you say China is socialist (which seems insane given it is literally an authoritarian state: the workers don’t own the means of production, the state does!), my original question:

                  It does seem insane when you just make things up that have nothing to do with reality.

                  Given all the pro-china arguments you’ve listed. Would you want to live there if you got the chance? And if so/if not, why?

                  I absolutely would live in China, and I’ve been learning Mandarin for the past year for the express purpose of moving there at some point. I’ve met plenty of people from China in university, many of whom moved back since. Knowing what people from China actually say about life in China compared to deranged fantasies people in the west appear to have, there’s little question regarding where I’d rather live given a choice.

  • Excalibur@lemmy.mlBanned
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    2 years ago

    Communism, like Capitalism, should be highly modified to fit a country’s issues. Classical Communism as by Marx and Engels is almost impossible to implement thanks to human nature.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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      2 years ago

      You do realize that capitalism has only existed for a tiny fraction of human existence. The utter lack of critical thinking required to believe that it’s human nature is simply astonishing.

      • Excalibur@lemmy.mlBanned
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        2 years ago

        Human nature is way too selfish, narcissistic, and greedy for communism and it’s other branches to work.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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          2 years ago

          You’ve got this completely backwards I’m afraid. If humans are indeed selfish, narcissistic, and greedy by nature then it’s capitalism and not socialism that’s incompatible with humans. We need systems that inhibit negative tendencies and encourage positive ones instead of the opposite. Capitalism is like inviting an alcoholic to a happy hour. We also have plenty of evidence that communism does in fact work, and consistently produces superior results to capitalism.

          • Excalibur@lemmy.mlBanned
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            2 years ago

            Not meaning to sound like an ass, but can you give examples of Communist countries that have had success in the long run? North Korea and South Korea were neck-to-neck in the 60s and 70s, since the SU’s collapse things haven’t been well for NK. China and Vietnam ironically had started to adopt market-like policies in the 80s and 90s. Cuba has been in a flux since the Soviet Union fell.

            But Humans are selfish to the core, Capitalism has always been flawed without human greed, however Communism and it’s derivatives have been suffering because of human nature being selfish and rotten, See Stalinism and Juche

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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              2 years ago

              Cuba, China, and Vietnam are all great examples to study. DPRK is doing well given that it’s completely blockaded by the global empire. Meanwhile, US has poured untold billions into propping SK up. Your argument completely ignores the fact that every communist country has to content with the aggression from the most powerful global empire to ever exist. It’s not like these countries are allowed to develop peacefully. Soviet Union provided a counterbalance and protected these countries from aggression by the US. Once it dissolved US redoubled its efforts to destroy these countries. If anything, the very fact that they are still around and thriving shows how resilient communism.

              Meanwhile, adopting capitalist policies doesn’t make a country capitalist any more than adopting some social services makes a country communist. What makes a country communist or capitalist is determined by which class holds power.

              • Excalibur@lemmy.mlBanned
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                2 years ago

                I would like to know why you think the U.S is a hostile Empire. I mean you can give our past examples of fierce anti-Communism as proof. But in the modern day, many of these communist nations inflict wounds on themselves via oppressing their own peoples, causing the UN to take action. The U.S would love to work and better relations with the 5 Communist countries of today, however it is them that are the problem, not us.

                Juche and Stalinism are proven to be perverted from their missions of Communistic ideals and were made by corrupt people who had zero care for their own population.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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                  2 years ago

                  I would like to know why you think the U.S is a hostile Empire.

                  Because of the long and well documented history of atrocities that US has been committing against communist and socialist countries for around a century now. Here are a couple of books you should read if you want to understand the nature of the empire

                  • https://ia800309.us.archive.org/26/items/fp_Killing_Hope-US_Military_and_CIA_Interventions_Since_WWII-William_Blum/Killing_Hope-US_Military_and_CIA_Interventions_Since_WWII-William_Blum.pdf
                  • http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=9A5EF5FCA74315C6FCDC1A545E8E3C4B

                  But in the modern day, many of these communist nations inflict wounds on themselves via oppressing their own peoples, causing the UN to take action.

                  In the modern day US is blockading Cuba, Venezuela, and DPRK. In fact, US has just recently tried to run a coup in Venezuela. US has also just recently done a coup in Peru against a mildly leftist government. The regime US is backing there is currently murdering people protesting against it.

                  The U.S would love to work and better relations with the 5 Communist countries of today, however it is them that are the problem, not us.

                  This statement is not based in reality.

                  Juche and Stalinism are proven to be perverted from their missions of Communistic ideals and were made by corrupt people who had zero care for their own population.

                  You have no clue regarding the subject you’re attempting to debate. Here are some facts you might want to consider before you regurgitate more nonsense. First, let’s take a look at a few studies that clearly show how nonsensical your claims are:

                  Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possilbe: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.507.8966&rep=rep1&type=pdf

                  Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2672986?seq=1

                  A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646771/pdf/amjph00269-0055.pdf

                  This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2430906/

                  Next, let’s just look at how do people who lived under communism feel now that they got a taste of capitalism

                  • A remarkable 72% of Hungarians say that most people in their country are actually worse off today economically than they were under communism. Only 8% say most people in Hungary are better off, and 16% say things are about the same. In no other Central or Eastern European country surveyed did so many believe that economic life is worse now than during the communist era. This is the result of almost universal displeasure with the economy. Fully 94% describe the country’s economy as bad, the highest level of economic discontent in the hard hit region of Central and Eastern Europe. Just 46% of Hungarians approve of their country’s switch from a state-controlled economy to a market economy; 42% disapprove of the move away from communism. The public is even more negative toward Hungary’s integration into Europe; 71% say their country has been weakened by the process.

                  • The most incredible result was registered in a July 2010 IRES (Romanian Institute for Evaluation and Strategy) poll, according to which 41% of the respondents would have voted for Ceausescu, had he run for the position of president. And 63% of the survey participants said their life was better during communism, while only 23% attested that their life was worse then. Some 68% declared that communism was a good idea, just one that had been poorly applied.

                  • Glorification of the German Democratic Republic is on the rise two decades after the Berlin Wall fell. Young people and the better off are among those rebuffing criticism of East Germany as an “illegitimate state.” In a new poll, more than half of former eastern Germans defend the GDR.

                  • A poll shows that as many as 81 per cent of Serbians believe they lived best in the former Yugoslavia -“during the time of socialism”. The survey focused on the respondents’ views on the transition “from socialism to capitalism”, and a clear majority said they trusted social institutions the most during the rule of Yugoslav communist president Josip Broz Tito. The standard of living during Tito’s rule from the Second World War to the 1980s was also assessed as best, whereas the Milosevic decade of the 1990s, and the subsequent decade since the fall of his regime are seen as “more or less the same”. 45 percent said they trusted social institutions most under communism with 23 percent choosing the 2001-2003 period when Zoran Djinđic was prime minister. Only 19 per cent selected present-day institutions.

                  • 75% of Russians have expressed increasingly positive opinions about the Soviet Union over the years. Only a small portion of those surveyed said they had negative associations with the Soviet Union. The economic deficit, long lines and coupons were named by 4% of respondents each, while the Iron Curtain, economic stagnation and political repressions were named by 1% each, the Levada Center said.

    • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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      2 years ago

      highly modified to fit a country’s issues

      Not “highly” but Marxism Leninism is the only version which had that build in, hence we have Socialism with Chinese Characterstics or Juche which are still both ML.

      Classical Communism as by Marx and Engels is almost impossible to implement thanks to human nature.

      You already responded to my main question, like someone who never read anything except Manifesto or probably not even manifesto, else you would know that Marx and Engels never given a ready blueprint for communism, they left that to the people who would implement it, because they weren’t dogmatics unlike the bunch of proudhons, lassales etc. and that even during the Marx life his political stance was being refined by revolutionary events - the biggest one would be formulation of the dictatorship of the proletariat doctrine after Paris Commune.

      human nature

      human nature

      human nature

    • BinkieT55@lemmygrad.ml
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      2 years ago

      deleted by creator

      • Excalibur@lemmy.mlBanned
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        2 years ago

        What’s up?

    • DerPapa69@lemmy.ml
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      2 years ago

      Would you mind giving just a quick explanation of what “classical communism” is?

      • Excalibur@lemmy.mlBanned
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        2 years ago

        Its a term I made up. The one explained in the Communist Manifesto, the true Marxist interpretation, preluding the heavily modified one and more popular Marxist-Leninism, it speaks of a society in which classes do not exist, and the workers truly have control of their society without Government presence.

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