SlAvA UkrAnI!
You obviously don’t get it. He had a reason to suspend elections AND it was legal for him to do so. Totally fine then.
From the latest Perceptions of Democracy index, from NIRA Data:
Ukrainians are among the most skeptical of the democratic processes in their country. Meanwhile, even a country as hotly contested as Venezuela, faith in elections is skyrocketing. And this is gathered by a western org run by a NATO official.
As always, I would like to point out that these kinds of surveys of public opinion are not really evidence of anything besides public opinion itself.
You cannot assert that a certain country has more or less of some quality simply because more people in that country said they think they do more frequently than people in a different country did.
For example if you asked Americans (particularly those in the south or rural areas) if they thought their country was more “free” than the rest of the world, you would probably get higher numbers than you would from most other regions of the world despite the fact that America is not that free relative to much of the world.
Trends in perception, as well as comparison, does tell a good story. In many ways it’s a superior method of data gathering on democracy than the standard method of defining democracy as whatever the Nordics are doing, and then grading everyone based on how closely they follow that.
Direct comparison of perception of democracy by people who have lived in both countries would be much clearer evidence of differences in democracy itself.
However, the raw perception of democracy without any other reference to other democracies does not allow for comparison/measurement of democracy itself but rather indicates how happy individuals feel within their current democracy.
The data is a good story and it does encode information, but that information is more significantly influenced by culture, current events, and overall happiness of the populace than it is by “level of democracy”
Sure. When I mean comparison, I mean in trends. If a country scores lower in one year while another scores higher, and this trend repeats, it’s a sign of improving and decaying conditions. Democracy isn’t really something you can measure directly, which makes the entire subject pretty muddy.
that’s why I put quotes around “level of democracy.” If everyone in a country had to vote directly for any and all government action, that is kind of the purest democracy possible, but it would not be a very effective method of government especially for large countries.
In order to rank democracy in a meaningful way, one would need to decide on what the desired outcomes of a “good”democracy are and which outcomes are most important etc. which would make the scale subjective.
Even that would not be democratic, as it ignores the role of ownership of production and distribution. In a capitalist economy, such would still be subject to the same mechanisms preventing bourgeois democracy from following the will of the proletariat.
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If you follow the comment chain you’ll see me and cowbee talk about how subjective the term “democracy” is.
However, we can illustrate my point using proof by counter example. It is entirely possible to imagine two countries with the same government structure (and hence “democracy”) but with different answers to this kind of survey.
Imagine two nearly identical countries each with corrupt governments having the exact same structure and culture etc. The only major difference between them is that in one of the countries, a recent scandal has occurred which was able to bring to light deep seated corruption and criminal activity of many public figures, whereas similar acts are being committed by the govt. of the other country, but none of it has been brought so fully to light yet.
The citizens of the former country are likely to rank their “democracy” lower than the citizens of the latter would rate their own, despite the fact both governments have equal amounts of corruption. Hence, surveys of popular opinion of democracy are not directly indicative of the “level of democracy” or level of corruption or fidelity etc. etc… QED.
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So would you say, that actively hostile imperialist western nations and their propaganda apparatus know more about democracy in Venezuela than Venezuelans?
For example if you asked Americans (particularly those in the south or rural areas) if they thought their country was more “free” than the rest of the world, you would probably get higher numbers than you would from most other regions of the world
Maybe this data will surprise you then:
Spain behind the US? LOL
Haha funnily enough that’s the graph I first had this argument with cowbee about lol
Exactly, its just anecdotal evidence on a bigger scale
Oh boy the reddit imperialists are angry with this one
Yeah, people get irritable about misinformation on their front page, like when someone falsely claims Zelenskyy canceled elections.
Not false, you’re losing
Zelenskyy isn’t blocking elections, though. Ukrainian law/constitution forbids elections under martial law, and they’re under martial law because they’re still under invasion from Russia. If anyone is blocking Ukrainian elections, it’s Putin because the only options he left them are to either resist and forego elections temporarily or submit and lose Ukrainian elections forever. In neither option does Ukraine get elections, and Zelenskyy isn’t the one who created the situation by invading.
Even if that weren’t 100% bullshit it wouldn’t matter because the current regime was put there by a US backed coup anyway. Russia’s response to our extremely obvious puppet state waging proxy war from right across their border is perfectly reasonable, if they overthrew Mexico and started sending people across the border to attack us we’d have fucking nuked them by now
Even if that weren’t 100% bullshit
Wishing doesn’t make it so. You’re free to try to prove me wrong, but you won’t like what you find when you search.
Russia’s response to our extremely obvious puppet state waging proxy war from right across their border is perfectly reasonable, if they overthrew Mexico and started sending people across the border to attack us we’d have fucking nuked them by now
You’d think Russia would have made a bigger deal of that if there were any truth to it at all, but they don’t even mention it. They like to make claims about Nazis, they like to cry about NATO expanding after some of their neighbors watched them abuse some of their other neighbors, they downplay whether they’re really in a genuine war or just a “special military operation”, but they never claim Ukraine attacked them first.
You’d think Russia would have made a bigger deal of that if there were any truth to it at all, but they don’t even mention it
They did and do, you’re a fucking joke
All I can find when I try to look into it is an AI overview claiming it with no source, but search is shit these days and heavily favors new news, so maybe you’re right and they have technically at some point made the claim.
But let’s look at what Putin had to say when the “special military operation” began:
“The purpose of this operation is to protect people who, for eight years now, have been facing humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime,” Putin said in a televised address. “To this end, we will seek to demilitarise and denazify Ukraine, as well as bring to trial those who perpetrated numerous bloody crimes against civilians, including against citizens of the Russian Federation.”
Now he makes a lot of claims there, but they’re not the point right now, so let’s try to not get distracted. Let’s focus on the part where he claims they attacked first because this is surely where he’d make that claim, right at the start when first trying to justify their actions, right? Except it isn’t there. Because it’s horse shit, and not even Putin can say it with a straight face.
And before that he banned opposition parties
No, a bunch of parties were suspended because they have connections to the country that’s bombing them, and it’s only while they’re under martial law. Martial law could end any day now if Russia just fucked off back home.
No, a bunch of parties were suspended
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words.
That’s a great thought-terminating cliche you have there. Careful with it, though. It’s an antique.
Brushing me off is a thought terminating cliche
You said nothing for me to really refute, other than a round about way of saying you think in generally full of shit. I made an actual claim, you made a vague dodge that doesn’t actually address it, I pointed that out.
Go back to reddit
“He didn’t ban opposition parties, opposition parties were merely banned, by him!”
banned
Suspended. As in, a temporary measure. Because dealing with Russia would be treasonous when they’re under active attack by Russia. Cry harder about people blocking Russian corruption. Someone here cares, too, I’m sure.
by him
Also not true. National Security and Defencr Council did it.
Any other blatant lies I can help clear up?
What is actually treasonous is killing your entire adult male population in a war you cannot win just so you can stay in power and keep stealing billions in foreign aid.
A war you yourself started by bombing your own people and then refusing to abide by the internationally ratified agreement that you previously signed.
The parties that want to negotiate with Russia an end to the conflict are the actual Ukrainian patriots.
There is nothing preventing elections from being held except the fact that the drug addled Nazi dictator knows he would lose them.
Canceling elections is totally fine if it’s our guy
Oh no the troll farm discovered lemmy.
It is so funny when you paranoid white Americans insist that anything that isn’t stroking the dick of your establishment must be a troll farm
Communists have been on Lemmy since the beginning.
True, but atleast the first comment is highlighting it.
LMBO yeah and they keep making zionazi liberal instances like lemmus.org
I don’t see any blue states going along with any potential attempts by Trump to cancel the election. There is literally nobody who is going to invade mainland USA in the next 3 years. It’s just not in the cards. In Ukraine, women my age notice that 10% of their dating pool is gone (dead, moved abroad, missing?). The average US citizen is going to experience whatever obvious false flag, just something less impactful than 2020s “wearing masks”, even if that’s literally a drone strike from Latin America, and they’re going to cancel elections over it?
I still think their play is that if Trump is succeeded by another Republican or if Trump himself becomes too unpopular, they coup him, and we wind up with a military junta. The libs would be so busy applauding their ‘saviors’ that they wouldn’t even notice their rights being taken away until it’s too late. I think the capitalists are tired of democracy, and want to be able to drop the pretenses without ceding control.
What part of martial law do you not understand?
A country being invaded can be and will be overthrown if possible. In fact, it’s been done many times in European imperialist history.
That’s why the clause exists, even before democracy was normalized in Europe. Just find someone else in line for procession and install a puppet prince.
It’s even been abused. Some speculate that Trump would trigger martial law to stay in office - or even Netenyahu himself clinging to power.
In the end you don’t want a captured government. That’s also historically been really bad.
Letting democracy exist is bad because then the government might change hands.
Gotcha.
Because then the government might be corrupted and perverted by the active aggressor with massive incentive to do so.
Or at least that’s what the fascists will say if anyone votes against continuing the war
Well there’s already a shitload of doubt over the referendums that happened after Russia invaded. The doubt is especially bolstered by the fact that polling data suggested sentiment favored moving away from Russia when they all of a sudden show up, hold a vote in regions they fully control, and win with a wildly impractical something like 95%. It’s not even good lying. It’s “fuck you, what are you gonna do about it?” lying.
“it wasn’t close therefore it is fake”
Who was voting? What was the voting about?
“Oh they asked people who had their democratic government couped by a hostile foreign power and had nazis installed that proceeded to ethnically cleanse them and take away their rights whether they wanted to stay part of that country”
And they didn’t want to?
“Yeah the only possible interpretation was they were brainwashed”
“it wasn’t close therefore it is fake”
No, it was fake because polling data that was relatively recent to the election was in gross conflict with the results. Imagine you lived somewhere with a large expat American population. Imagine that polling specifically in the region full of American expats showed that the clear majority did NOT want to join the US and that the trend over time is for the sentiment to get STRONGER, not weaker. Now imagine the US invades, a referendum on secession and annexation by the US is held almost immediately, and the vote is exactly what the US wants, the people increasingly did NOT want, and they claimed the vote was 95% in their favor. You’d never buy that load of bullshit, but if Russia does it, and it’s perceived to be against The West…
Oh so imagine the opposite of the situation we’re talking about.
No.
Who collected this polling data? Have a link/source? From everything I’ve seen the east was firmly pro yanukovych and Crimea specifically formally petitioned for Russian intervension after the 2014 coup. And while the Donbass didn’t formally petition they literally went to war for the right to split away from Ukraine.
Read history, bro - instead of suckling at the feet of Putin. Martial law does not exclude democracy, as democracy is more than national elections and representative democracy (not that you’d know anything about that) - but a change in government can actively sabotage defences and weaken a nation to be overrun by a foreign agressor 👏 while 👏 the 👏 nation 👏 is 👏 being 👏 invaded.
But tell me how Maripol being leveled is somehow good for renovation plans.
Go back to reddit
Haven’t been on Reddit for many, many years - because of chuds like you. So that’s your home, your place - not mine.
But I see you bootlickers now are trying to infest the fediverse. But we say no to you and your masters. It’s therefore you who need to go back, because here on the fediverse, it’s still smash the fasch, it’s still decentralization, it’s still power to the people - and not some Russian despot, Alexander the great wannabe.
So take your chud PsyOp back to Reddit, along with the other fascists, ethno nationalists, zionists, neo-nazis and “Z patriots” - where you can jerk each other off.
You joined lemmy last year lol
I’ve been jumping platforms for years. Sopuli is Scandinavian, which is why I joined it. But nice “gotcha”.
Back to Reddit with you.
Why is this comment formatted like an AI wrote it?
Because AI are glorified statistical models that steal all of histories texts and tries to replicate language using median and average?
EDIT: alt accounts for consistent -2 down votes is such Reddit behavior.
Ukrain already has a captured government. 😜
Just for factual correctness (don’t actually care about your opinion) - no Israeli election was cancelled. Bibi himself lost an election in 2020.
Ukraine being less democratic than Israel is not the gotcha its supporters expected
As I said, not going for any gacha. Also not versed enough on Ukraine politics to comment. Just saying that no Israeli election was cancelled (we’re going to have one in a couple of months).
Decided a while ago I don’t want to get into internet arguments, big waste of time which can be used for more significant things.
I didn’t even meant to argue, just wanted to put it into perspective for lurkers. We could even go further and note that there is huge support for genocide in various forms and methods in Israel, but Zelensky got explicitly elected on his promises of deescalating and stopping the civil war.
Ukraine needs to have elections
The thing is their constitution states that during a time of war they can’t.
Oh well since it’s legal then that’s alright. Guess slavery is fine too, as long as the constitution says it is.
Abraham Lincoln was given a choice to not hold elections during the American civil war but he understood the war is at the will of the people. Are we afraid the Ukrainian people will vote against the war?
You can’t let a pesky volk get in the way of the endsieg
Abraham Lincoln was given a choice
And Zelenskyy is not given a choice. Their constitution forbids it. Are you suggesting that Zelenskyy should seize more power beyond that granted by the constitution?
From NIRA data.
Great. Then have an election!
Again under martial law there cannot be elections, and I highly doubt ending martial law now would have a good outcome.
Zelenskyy didn’t cancel elections, though. They’re legally forbidden in Ukraine during martial law, which is only still in effect because Russia is still invading. If anyone canceled Ukrainian elections, it’s Putin because the choice for Ukraine was either submit and lose elections permanently or resist and enact martial law, losing them temporarily.
Oh well since he had a reason to suspend elections indefinitely and it was legal for him to do so… Nothing at all wrong with that. That’s not textbook dictatorship shit or anything.
Just like how it was legal for him to make a bunch of opposition parties illegal. Since it was legal there’s no issue at all.Zelenskyy doesn’t get a say in whether or not there are elections. It is not his decision. It’s the Ukrainian constitution.
He also didn’t personally ban the political parties. A national defense council or something like that, I forget the name, made the decision. And the decision only lasts while they’re under martial law. And it’s parties with ties to Russia, the country actively invading them. Boo fucking hoo, the invader’s allies are restricted.
So… Nothing you said was accurate. At all.
Ah yes because the only way one can influence politics is by directly making the decision.
A national defense council or something like that, I forget the name, made the decision. And the decision only lasts while they’re under martial law.
Oh well since it’s legal and they have to do it due to martial law I guess their hands are twisted. Such unfortunate circumstances really.
And it’s parties with ties to Russia, the country actively invading them. Boo fucking hoo, the invader’s allies are restricted.
I personally think it is a bad thing when habeas corpus gets dissolved. I think it’s a bad thing when you get arrested because the government does not like who you associate with. Even if my government were to think my associates are undesirables. But that’s just me, thinking you should be free to do stuff like talk to people. Or write in Russian. Or speak russian. Or vote. Or at least vote in the regions that aren’t actively invaded, which is part of the whole martial law thing. But that’s just me, thinking people should have their democratic rights protected. I suppose if you’re a fascist you think it’s awesome when ethnic minorities get persecuted, the freedom of assembly gets destroyed, the right to vote, the right to speak out and so many other rights get suppressed, is awesome. Especially since it’s legal to do. It’s not like governments ever lie or anything, it’s not like there’s any reason to doubt their motives, it’s not like the political parties that get targeted are very conveniently the ones in opposition. It’s not like politicians ever try to construct a narrative about what they do.
In fact I remember when Putin invaded he said word for word “I am invading Ukraine. I don’t care what people think. I do this because I am evil, I want to make Russia bigger and I am jealous of zelensky. I order this personally and in spite of the popular will.” That’s how it works after all. These guys can’t lie, so he must’ve said that.I’ve got my dunks in, so I’m gonna block you now, since it’s obvious you’re too thickheaded to understand what is being told.
Oh well since it’s legal and they have to do it due to martial law I guess their hands are twisted. Such unfortunate circumstances really.
Well, they could just let the imperialist invader’s allies run rampant. Funny how imperialism is somehow only bad when the west does it. If the US was invading somewhere, this community would call for members of parties allied with the US to be executed, but since this is against The West, not by The West, it’s not imperialism, it’s just sparkling war of conquest.
personally think it is a bad thing when habeas corpus gets dissolved. I think it’s a bad thing when you get arrested because the government does not like who you associate with. Even if my government were to think my associates are undesirables. But that’s just me, thinking you should be free to do stuff like talk to people. Or write in Russian. Or speak russian.
Literally none of this is relevant. They’re not arrested. They just can’t act as a political party. Because they have active ties to an actual military invader.
Or at least vote in the regions that aren’t actively invaded, which is part of the whole martial law thing. But that’s just me, thinking people should have their democratic rights protected.
I want to agree, but I’m not sure it’s viable for a few reasons. One, anyone in occupied territory is excluded from the election that way, which means eastern Ukraine, the part with more Russian citizens and speakers, the side people here claim to care so deeply about, would be excluded while the western faction everyone here seems to hate would be left essentially unchecked. Sounds like that’d disenfranchise people, particularly the ones this community professes to support. Two, just because an invader doesn’t control a region doesn’t mean they can’t act in it. I would 100% expect Russia to do their damnedest to interfere as widely as they possibly could because if they can corrupt the election, they can force in someone who will just submit to them.
Now, it’s possible I just haven’t thought of all the possibilities, so I’m open to being convinced there’s a better way. But nobody can ever come up with a way to not disenfranchise big chunks of the population in votes that directly impact them without giving Russia ample opportunity to try to force in who they want in opposition to the will of the people.
I suppose if you’re a fascist you think it’s awesome when ethnic minorities get persecuted, the freedom of assembly gets destroyed, the right to vote, the right to speak out and so many other rights get suppressed, is awesome. Especially since it’s legal to do.
This is just you shoving words in my mouth to construct an easy strawman.
It’s not like governments ever lie or anything, it’s not like there’s any reason to doubt their motives, it’s not like the political parties that get targeted are very conveniently the ones in opposition. It’s not like politicians ever try to construct a narrative about what they do.
It’s wild that this line of thinking never gets turned around on Russia. Nobody in here ever wants to question Russia’s motives. Nobody in here ever wants to question info that makes The West look bad. Nobody wants to consider the fact that no nation gets into a position of such power as Russia through benevolence, only through gross exploitation, and they only manage to perpetuate that position through more gross exploitation.
In fact I remember when Putin invaded he said word for word “I am invading Ukraine. I don’t care what people think. I do this because I am evil, I want to make Russia bigger and I am jealous of zelensky. I order this personally and in spite of the popular will.” That’s how it works after all. These guys can’t lie, so he must’ve said that.
See, you’re so close to actually questioning Russia’s honesty here.
I’ve got my dunks in, so I’m gonna block you now, since it’s obvious you’re too thickheaded to understand what is being told.
Lmao I called out two very obvious lies, you went off on a tangent to find an excuse to shit talk me, and now I’m NoT wOrTh YoUr TiMe. Yeah, I’m not surprised people in here are allergic to facts. They’ve got some decent ideals in here, but god damn do they love to for propaganda against The West.
Zelenskyy didn’t cancel elections, though. They’re legally forbidden
Yeah, not every nation wants to deal with securing elections in an active war zone, especially against an opponent heavily incentivized and willing to put their thumb on the scale however they can.
Yeah not every nation wants to do that. Some nations are fascist dictatorships.
Put that right next to ‘two things can be true at once’ in the library of trying to conjure thoughts from nothing but pure passive voice.
especially against an opponent heavily incentivized and willing to put their thumb on the scale however they can
Sorry you’re not allowed to have a democracy because someone might try to convince you to vote against me.
Love me, I’m a liberal.
Sorry you’re not allowed to have a democracy because someone might try to convince you to vote against me.
I can’t believe you’re genuinely this unimaginative. Do you really think Russia would limit themselves to propaganda? Do you think Russia respects the democratic process enough to not interfere in an election where getting the right leader might mean submission, annexation, and victory? The same Russia that was the origin for multiple bomb threats on polling locations during the US 2024 election? The same Russia that’s constantly fraught with internal accusations of election fraud? That Russia?
And that’s why democracy is for another time.
I mean… If the election has a really high chance of not genuinely reflecting the will of the people because an outside force is guaranteed to attempt to interfere with the election… Yeah, it’s kinda not the time because you’re going to choose based on the will of the invader, not the will of the people.
If you cared about the will of the people you wouldn’t have violently overthrown their government and installed a regime of literal nazis to murder and suppress the population you pretend to weep for.
But then again if you cared about the people of Ukraine AT ALL you wouldn’t be okay with them living under a nazi regime LET ALONE happily giving those nazis absolute power to decide when and if they ever give up absolute power.
So like all right wingers, I have to wonder. Where are you on the evil/stupid continuum? Do you espouse your views because you are fully self aware as a devoted nazi partisan? Or are you tied for the dumbest person to have ever lived?
This is hilarious especially when it comes to Ukraine. History began in 2022 I guess.
It’s also funny with Russia lmao. Yeah it’s definitely the russians that are the issue when it comes to election interference lmao.
Russia is clearly after the Donbass, not all of Ukraine. Elections will persist even after the almost certain conclusion, that being full annexing of the 4 oblasts. This is the sensible outcome, considering western Ukraine coup’d the president supported by the Donbass region in a Banderite takeover:
Since the Banderite coup in 2014, Ukraine has been in a civil war where Kiev has been ethnically cleansing the Donbass region. The Minsk agreements were both tanked by Ukraine and the west, meaning diplomatic solutions to the Civil War were tried, and failed.
If Russia is clearly only after Donbass, why did they open by trying to seize the capital?
If Russia is clearly only after the Donbass, why did it try to quickly force an end to the war before thousands of people died and a bunch of infrastructure was destroyed? Truly a conundrum.
They didn’t seriously try to take the capital, and even if by miracle they did, the purpose is to end the war then and there. Right now they are focusing on attrition, wearing Ukraine down slowly.
If it is so, why are they bombing and loosing personnel in Sumy or Kharkiv?
Do you think in war you only attack what you directly plan on taking?
- Even when you routinely bomb civilians?
- In your logic there’s nothing that can disapprove your position. Good luck Mr. Gorsky.
Even when you routinely bomb civilians?
?? Even amnesty has noted that Russia is the ones to make civilian escape corridors from areas under siege, while Ukraine shells them.
What western propaganda does to an MF. Get out of the echo chamber.
Are you referring to Kiev shelling civilians in the Donbass region for 8 years, prompting Russia’s entry into the war? Also, no clue why you’re calling me Mr. Gorsky, are you accusing me of being Russian just because I think the people in Donetsk and Luhansk are human?
Leverage my man
And you think Russia would have just traded it back for Donbass? Lol. Lmao, even.
No I think they would and did use it to apply political pressure and relieve military pressure from other fronts by drawing enemy reserves. “Trade it for the Donbas” what are you nine?
My point is that Russia definitely wanted it, and they definitely wouldn’t have come off of it if they conquered it. Pretending it was just a feint or that they didn’t really want the capital is just whitewashing Russia’s war of conquest.
This is you deciding what you want to be true in the face of all evidence to the contrary to preserve the very simplistic good guys/bad guys narrative you prefer.
He didn’t suspend elections. However he did rig them
Well, that’s an insta-block.
so much pro russian propaganda in the meme channel, crazy
Actually, the opposite.
Crazy to see many imperialist supporters trying to justify Western capitalist puppets/allies
Also pretty crazy to watch a bunch of anti-imperialists laud imperialism just because it happens to be against their perceived enemies, The West. Lies in favor of Putin and against Ukraine are fucking rampant in this community, and you would think they’d be opposed to a war of conquest, but so long as The West is hurt, they’ll justify literally anything.
“Imperialism is when a country invades another country under any circumstance”
I fucking hate how you libs sling out terminology you do not understand. Imperialism isn’t just a word used to describe when “bad country does military stuff”. It’s an academic term, it’s a part of capitalist exploitation, it’s an actual process, not just some word every dumbass can shit out to describe what they don’t like. Imperialism is when I fuck your mom.
Oh, I disagree with you, obviously I just don’t understand what words mean!
Imperialism is the maintaining and extending of power over foreign nations, particularly through expansionism, employing both hard power (military and economic power) and soft power (diplomatic power and cultural imperialism). Imperialism focuses on establishing or maintaining hegemony and a more formal empire.[
From Wikipedia.
Yeah, that’s what I’m accusing Russia of. They have no altruistic intentions in Ukraine. Anyone who thinks Russia is there for any other reason is a sucker.
Lmao this mf out here citing Wikipedia! What’s next, gonna quote freedom burger institute?
My guy even you dipshitted quote implies what imperialism actually entails.obviously I just don’t understand what words mean!
Admitting it is the first step
What the fuck’s it matter? I googled a definition on the off chance that may, just maybe, I’d mixed it up, checked a couple of the results, and copied over one of them.
Nope, turns out I knew what the word means. Russia’s war on Ukraine is imperialist in nature. They are not in Ukraine for any reason other than their own selfish interests. They want to conquer and annex Ukraine for the express purpose of expansion and economic benefit. Stuff like the warm water ports that Russian trolls have been caught red handed going on about on other social media.
Where is imperialism lauded?
Tho, the West which sides with Genocide and Nazis, while also being engaged in neo-colonialism, will obviously be getting more concern.
And considering NATO surrounding Russia and helping Ukraine kill civilian in areas like Donbass with Russian speaking people, restricting Russian language n all, some people do think that Russia was baited into acting.
Where is imperialism lauded?
Russia in Ukraine is a great example. The amount if very easily disproven Russian propaganda I see spread in here is insane, and it gets eaten up because it gives people a chance to rail against The West. And I’m not saying the railing is undeserved. I’m just saying that people lap up very obvious bullshit to get an opportunity to participate.
some people do think that Russia was baited into acting.
If you think Russia acted out of anything other than selfish interest, I have a bridge to sell you.
Which is the obvious ‘Russian propaganda’ shared here that you mention? Do list some.
If you think Russia acted out of anything other than selfish interest, I have a bridge to sell you.
I have no intent to buy one. If you ordered a bridge, you can keep it.
No one is saying that it is altruism in case of war.
But that Western imperialism’s arm… NATO’s escalation and posturing has contributed a lot to the issue.
I said it seems that Russia was baited by West’s encirclement
Which is the obvious ‘Russian propaganda’ shared here that you mention? Do list some.
-
Zelenskyy canceled elections. He didn’t, they’re constitutionally forbidden under martial law, and he’s bound to the constitution. If you want Ukrainians to have elections again, get Putin to fuck off. They either had to enact martial law and lose elections temporarily or be conquered and lose Ukrainian elections permanently.
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Zelenskyy banned the opposition parties. He didn’t, that was a national defense council. Specifically, parties with active ties to Russia, the country actively invading them, were temporarily suspended only while under martial law, so they’ll be back once treasonous aid to the invader is off the table.
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Russia invaded because they were being attacked by people coming over the border from Ukraine. This was a wild claim because I can’t even find evidence that Russia claimed this, and when asked, they provided a bunch of articles about the 2014 “coup” that didn’t mention the alleged attacks.
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The vote to join Russia from… I think Crimea happened before the invasion. Might be mixing up events here, but I don’t have time to dig more up right now. But it didn’t. It didn’t happen until Russia had already seized the region, which is relevant because we cannot trust Russia to run fair elections, especially for a vote like that.
This is just what I found by glancing through my recent comment history to find recent claims made in Lemmy.ml posts. These are ones I actually had to verify myself, and all of them were trivially easy to prove are incorrect. All of these claims are extremely easily verifiable lies in favor of Russian goals. I’m not saying the people I heard it from are intentionally spreading propaganda. At least some portion are undoubtedly just people who have fallen for sweet sounding lies about perceived enemies they already hate, basically falling for confirmation bias.
Maduro also did not cancel elections, right?
Zelenskyy banned the opposition parties. He didn’t, that was a national defense council.
That is under Zelensky, right?
If so, then claims against Putin and Maduro also are wrong, as they also have council-equivalents, ministries of defense, agencies etc.
Regarding other claims, I did not see them here.
My understanding was that NATO expanded which baited Russia.
And there was growing Ukrainian supremacism with Russian speaking regions like Donbass being affected. Have read that their 2019 language law had exceptions for English and European Union’s official languages, while Russian, Belarusian and Yiddish languages did not have any. So, Russian speaking regions of Ukraine having issue is understandable there.
The Nazi symbols on some Ukrainian soldiers too.
My understanding is that Western imperialist powers wants to isolate Russia, setup NATO bases around them and squeeze them, for not falling in line as a vassal. NATO was getting closer to Ukraine, arranged regime change in 2014 etc.
And finally everything culminated into the Russia taking bait.
I remember seeing a video on it.
Edit: Yep, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8
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The imperialists’ favorite scammery: Redefining imperialism.
Oh, please, if you think Russia isn’t interested in conquering and expanding, I’d say I have a bridge to sell you, but you probably already got cleaned out.
I’m not saying the US is good, that’s classic whataboutism.
Whataboutism is a made up propaganda concept popularised by a zionist and spread by the CIA.
You made a classic ad hominem attack since you had no proper response to the meme.
I replied to see your reaction and it confirms it then.
I’m not sure you know what ad hominem means.
Attacking the person and not the point?
Should I have termed it as ‘Poisoning the well’ or something else?
What term would you have used?An ad hominem would be to dismiss an argument by attacking the person or circumstances. You know, like calling someone a Russian bot.
Secondly, I think you missed the point of the image. You claim to believe America is bad, but simultaneosly adopt it’s views on geopolitical rivals uncritically. Yes, including the view that anything that portrays the west in a negative light being “Russian propaganda”. Funnily enough, that’s the real ad hominem and is something incredibly common to hear coming out of liberals.
Edit: this was actually aimed at potustheplant, not Mayali. Clicked reply on the wrong comment.
Did you mistake me for the original commentor?
While that is correct, it’s not what the comment you replied to did. There’s no criticisim to you as a person. It simply says that the argument reads as “whataboutism” so yup, your reply doesn’t really make sense.
Are you isolating that comment alone, while ignoring the original comment? I was talking about that one. Not any towards me, but the original OP.
I mentioned that they did not have any response, other than trying to poison the well and implying stuff about the memes community, OP and other posters.
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This is just Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy for liberals.
eh, prettt sure most of that is the US punching itself in the face
agreed, it all sucks
Laundering your talking points as text on an image does not a meme make
That’s literally what a political meme is
I was being kind to this low effort post
lol if you think Venezuela is not a dictatorship.
Venezuela is more democratic than western countries. Why is it that westerners demonize revolutionaries for not following the political process, and demonize electoralists for following the political process anyways? Because both are threats to capital.
…maybe because many westerners are worried about losing their democracy? I mean, when democracies Fall, they usually don’t make room for better democracies, historically speaking.
Westerners in general don’t have democracy, capitalists have democracy in the west. That’s why the implementation of socialism is necessary, bringing democracy to the working classes and kicking out the capitalists.
Just because the majority of the people in a country disagree with you doesn’t mean it’s not a democracy. In many western countries there are (still) free and fair elections. This is verifiable. But democracy lives off of active participation, and there are people (read: fascists) who see democracy as a threat and do everything they can to sow FUD in order to reduce election participation.
That’s literally exactly what that means you fucking moron
Elections are not indicative of democracy. The fact that capital is what determines which parties are viable, what candidates are allowed to run, and controls the entire economy means that elections in capitalism are more of a pressure valve than an actual way to get your voice across. Capitalism is incompatible with working class democracy.
How the hell are elections not indicative of democracy? I mean, just because you have elections doesn’t mean you have a proper democracy (e.g. if there is only one party available), but how those elections are run says a lot. They’re the core of any democracy. Democracy is, by definition, the people being ruled by the people. So you need some form of governance that is accountable to the people.
And capital is far from the only thing that determines if parties are viable. Yes, it plays too much of a role (especially in the US, but there are many western countries that aren’t the US), but let’s not pretend it’s some mysterious being that decides everything. That ignores so many important factors.
Elections aren’t democracy, as you said democracy is rule by the majority. Pluralism, the ability to choose between parties, isn’t actually democracy either. A single party system can be more democratic if it’s a consultative democracy and reflects the will of the majority, like how it works in China (though China obviously has many, many elections). That also doesn’t mean pluralism is inherently antidemocratic, countries like the DPRK have multiple political parties with seats (even if the majority are held by the WPK), just that the will of the majority be upheld.
In capitalism, a tiny class of people controls the most essential means of production and distribution for society. The state represents their interests, and any parties that exist must represent them, or instead have strong grassroots support and work against the state (such as the Bolsheviks). Choosing between any number of capitalist parties doesn’t mean workers are going to be represented. No western country represents the will of the majority.
Capitalism is not some mysterious being, its a phenomenon and it is fundamentally incompatible with democracy. If the workplace was democratized then you would not have capitalism.
Lol you still believe what the Epstein Burger Reich tells you about other countries, that’s fucking embarassing
They literally had an election and it was a very close run thing we’re the US backed puppet nearly won.
But yeah, sure, it’s a dictatorship, whatever…
The elección was rigged and there even was mathematical evidence of it. That’s ignoring that Maduro had like 8 vote options all for himself.
Nice source. Damn, look at those funders. The Goldman Sachs philanthropy fund 🤣
https://www.dejusticia.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/MEMORIA-ECONOMICA-830131150-2024.pdf
Did you take any to look at the mathematical argument being done? Ad hominems are usually taken as bad faith in academics, and this is an académico argument.
It was a big a notice on the math world in the zone, no surprise it was being reported a lot. In any case, to satisfy your and hominem, here’s an article published in a mid-left Colombian newsletter https://www.elespectador.com/opinion/columnistas/hector-abad-faciolince/democracia-totalitaria-y-matematicas/
Even Terrence Tao reported on the issue: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2024/08/02/what-are-the-odds-ii-the-venezuelan-presidential-election/
If you have mathematical arguments against Terrence’s, I would love to read them.
An ad-hominem is when I attack you or your character. I pointed out that your source is likely extremely biased.
And for the mathematical argument, the numbers he’s analysing don’t even match the reported votes in this other source that is highly critical of Maduro.
https://www.freiheit.org/venezuela-electoral-fraudster-president-venezuela
The reason for the discrepancy is the numbers are from when the CNE first oficially declared Maduro the winner of the elections. The numbers Terrence used are given by CNE’s president himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1v1y1_8AKY.
The source you provided uses the last numbers given by the CNE.
If the elections were rigged, I’d prefer that to having a filthy imperialist gringo bootlicking politician in office, anything the PSUV has to offer is way better for the people in Latam. I don’t give two fucks about satisfying your Western idea/ideal of whatever putrid thing you think democracy is. What an honour that the likes of you don’t think this is a democracy.
True… thankfully the glorious US bombed those undemocratic dictator fishing ships and invaded their country to righteously kidnap their undemocratically un-elected president and his heinous wife while killing people.
Now it gets to be a true democracy! Where their country starts going through liberalization and worsening social nets as their future is sold off to private sectors. Truly no longer a dictatorship.
2 bads don’t make 1 good.
The two bads you’re lumping together are mass murder and “a disreputable source didn’t like how you ran that election”
Actual harm versus theoretical harm at some point in the future to a non material concept
You’re deranged
And that’s not even getting into the fact that the non-harm you elevate was used as justification to commit the mass murders you diminish.
Psycho.
I was pointing out the logical fallace in claiming Venezuela is not a dictotarship just because US is a horrible country.
Oh okay so you were just ignoring how the outside world is the context for this conversation.
So you’re just a fundamentally dishonest and unserious person. And you’re actively defending the side the murders in the hundreds while attacking the side getting murdered.
The US has done a whole lot more than 1 fucking bad
I know. What’s your point? I’m not claiming US is a utopia, or have done no harm, I’m not even doing any claim about US. My claim is Venezuela is a dictatorship, and I think arguing “It is not, because US bad” is not a valid refutation to my claim.
My claim is Venezuela is a dictatorship
Have any proof for that claim? Or honestly even a proper analysis of the Venezuelan system and in what ways you believe it doesn’t serve the people/the people aren’t in control?
Maduro is so incompetent he blundered and allowed mathematical evidence of the past elections being rigged. Here’s an extensive analysis of that by Terrence Tao: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2024/08/02/what-are-the-odds-ii-the-venezuelan-presidential-election/
Usa rigs almost every election in the world. Collect some evidence about this too, or you’re just an imperialist propagandist (and kidnapper-bootlicker).
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Ah yes, a dictatorship where American puppets can b¡tch and moan about not letting the US ravage their countries can partake in elections.
Just stop consuming the Eagle Burger Institute slop my dude.
What does this post have to do with Venezuela
First panel of the meme is about Venezuela.
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When did I claim it wasn’t? Why do you all have an obsession of dimissing any criticism of Venezuela with a reference to US? I’m not even from there.
