Not the right wing “men’s right” thing. Some kind of left version, that would fundamentally be a feminist movement but with different branding.

Different branding would be necessary to absorb a bunch of men into it.

@incici@lemmy.ml
link
fedilink
19
edit-2
1M

The reason young men went hard-right in the last decade is because left-wing movements stopped talking about issues that affect men. The vacuum was filled by people like Jordan Peterson.

You can’t build a popular movement and be dismissive of half of the population.

Completely agree, I’ve been repeating this to all the people I am able to discuss with: Marxism, being most of the factory-worker Proletariat composed by men, was fundamentally a men’s right movement.

I also find saddening that so many believe that you can’t create a movement that champions men’s wellbeing without it devolving into the terms of the “patriarchy”. How are socialist parties going te even figure in government if they abandon their main strenght, which is to be for the whole labor class?

Oatcake
link
fedilink
81M

Like men’s lib, but Marxist? I think that would be neat. It’s definitely necessary. The way men are socialized + all the incel/fascist pipelines is creating so much misery. And literally killing people. We should try to combat that as much as we can.

As a woman I really wish we would put more focus on the patriarchy. I think many communists, particularly male communists, tend to underestimate the importance of it. Maybe because whenever the patriarchy is discussed, it is usually to point out the misogyny. I wish empathy for women could be enough, but if men are taught from birth that we are their servants and accessories then their empathy has already been dampened. So it’s not enough to talk about women’s issues. We also need to talk about men’s issues in a way that keeps all this in mind.

Men’s rights movements tend to devolve into incel hellholes, but so long as a feminist lens and Marxist perspective is being utilized then there’s at least a chance that it won’t.

I hope there can be a movement of men supporting men in a non-toxic way. I really think you could accomplish so much if you made a movement based on radical compassion for each other. Men supporting men, in the ways that men need to be supported. Open up to each other, display your vulnerabilities, be soft. That would be brave.

Spoken like you’ve watch contrapoint’s men video!

From what I’ve seen, if men’s issues are brought up in leftist spaces, it’s immediately dismissed for being a kekw issue.

I have a hunch of people interested in men lib are Marxist, a lot of overlapping interests. !mensliberation@lemmy.ca

The Men’s Liberation subreddit also goes along these same lines, as a feminism-aligned counterpoint to MRA’s that instead seeks to free men from society’s harmful restrictions instead of feeding traditionalist’s grievances.

Men’s Liberation subreddit

my biggest criticism of that subreddit is it’s basically all like scholars posting hoty-toty articles. Whereas like the ‘men gone their own way’ subreddit are like 50% dudes who were just dumped yesterday and are ranting hard. We could do with a men’s liberation that doesn’t automatically (via automod) remove posts by some dude who is just here to rant about his break up, but as long as the rant isn’t misogynstic.

I didn’t word this the best, and their automod is a bit different than that, but i think you get my drift

poVoq
link
fedilink
71M

Some people tried this before, by rebranding feminism into a emancipatory movement that explicitly includes men.

The problem is that in our society/culture men are often even more indoctrinated into typical gender roles than females, because those male roles are being sold to them as being something better while in reality they are just perpetuating the toxic rat race / hustle culture.

The hight of the irony is when feminists want to take over male domains without realizing that they would be drawing the short stick by doing so.

Anyways, tl;dr an explicit “men’s movement” can’t work as it would just perpetuate toxic gender roles, and anything else is just a plain old emancipatory movement.

Talk to any male marxist and they will tell you that the way they experience oppression under capitalism is different than the way women do. Of course, there are differences between experienced oppression of say, for example, different minorities, but some of the common/shared ways that men experience oppression include things like mental health outcomes and incredible social isolation. These are factors that are contributory to the fascist pipeline.

So obviously, patriarchy doesn’t advantage men so much as it advantages wealthy men, or maybe perhaps it’s better to say it advantages well-off men. But for minorities, poorer men, neurodivergent men, or trans, it’s still a hell hole as they contend with a society that treats them as disposable, and failures for being unable to provide. This shuts them off from forming meaningful relationships and social opportunities. So it advantanges certain men, and disadvantages the rest.

I think being aware of that is very important and can help win over men to the cause of Marxism, and provide common ground with women and a personal cause for men to improve their material conditions, which is insanely important.

That being said I do think looking at countries that have won their revolution, that simply reclaiming the means of production does outright improve the material conditions of men by default by improving health care, better career opportunities, and lowering income inequality. Men (particularly white men in america) are already advantaged generally under capitalism and so therefore there will be some inequality inevitable during a socialist period of government (this is consistent with what Marx says about inequalities being inevitable as capitalist infrastructure remains during transition).

So I think my answer is similar to what some other people have said already - that the base form of Marxism/socialism does much already to help men. But yeah, at some level we do need to explore ways of bringing men into the fold by exposing how patriarchy works against men, and showing how socialism benefits men. I think it’s become a bit taboo discuss this stuff and that’s probably simply because of the efforts by the ruling class to divide us, using rainbow capitalism and the alt right as ways to smear any real dialogue.

The gender divide, political or otherwise, is another classic tactic by the rich ruling class to ensure we never organise enough to overthrow them. They pit us against ourselves so we don’t attack them. If we’re to have a successful revolution, we must be a united front, not have separate competing movements along arbitrary lines like gender, race, etc.

as a long long term strategy i agree. In the short run however, i think we need something to help disarm the men’s right activists

aedalla
link
fedilink
4
edit-2
1M

So my mother is an old-school feminist. Part of the women’s army core back when that was a thing, a STEM graduate and worker in the 80’s. She’s seen some shit.

What she says about the feminist movement (and having been in three relationships now with men I agree) is that it advanced women, but men didn’t step up. Women became able to do it all, childcare, homemaking, AND working and even breadwinning. Many men took this not as an opportunity to step up and do more themselves, but as an opportunity to do less. They just let women do 50% of the work now, plus 100% of the housework. So modern women average out to doing like 75% of the work!

I can confirm that this was present in 2/3 of my relationships with men. The men involved were practically children I had to care for. They would do some work but would then spend the money on themselves and maybe give me some of it to make sure the bills got paid. They did nothing to clean or maintain the area around them. They did nothing to ensure the laundry got done or that decent food got made. Both of them I had to encourage to clean themselves. They spent the rest of their time playing video games. Sometimes for 16 hours a day if I didn’t “harass” them. I suppose I’m glad I had teenagers with part time jobs instead of something more akin to toddlers but either way they were confused when my attraction to them rapidly vanished due to their childlike behavior. I now have an actual grown man who is comfortable completing household tasks, perhaps even moreso than me. This is fine by me, as I am much more comfortable working 48+ weeks outside the home if needed.

I cannot speak to what branding would make this palatable to men, but I hope you find some way of encouraging them to see cooking, cleaning, and doing laundry, as general adult tasks instead of women’s ones. Please. For all of our sakes.

I cannot speak to what branding would make this palatable to men, but I hope you find some way of encouraging them to see cooking, cleaning, and doing laundry, as general adult tasks instead of women’s ones. Please. For all of our sakes.

Ive seen a study that says that men who does housework have more/better sex with their wives. I think it has huge potential to find the study and like mass market it to guys. After it, it seems like a lot of guys work out only because they think it’ll lead to more sex, heck even some roommate only cleaned up on days they were bringing home a gf.

comfy
link
fedilink
41M

The men’s rights shouldn’t be an offshoot. It should be an integrated part of whatever you are calling ‘left wing’. Same with feminism, of course. Why create these false dichotomies?

See other posts like: [1], [2], [3]

See other posts like:

afaik, these are ‘replies’ not ‘posts’. technically speaking

dreamLogic
link
fedilink
21M

There’s inklings of this kind of thing already here and there, one example: https://goodmenproject.com/

@meloo

The way this post is written, I would be very opposed because it puts politics before men.

comfy
link
fedilink
1
edit-2
1M

How can you put politics before men in a mens’ movement? Men’s rights IS politics. Feminism is politics. Politics isn’t some abstract separate entity to society.

Try and detach politics from these things (a contradiction, but people try to) and you have nothing left but discussion and complaining that can go nowhere.

complaining that can go nowhere

you just described 50% of what i’ve seen on the ‘men gone their own way’ sub

Does the men’s Right movement puts politics before men?

@meloo

I think it’s “mens’ rights”. And no, from what I can tell, politics is secondary at best, not primary.

If you take a lot at the Men Right subreddit, imo, politics looks like the life and soul of their movement, with men secondary

this might just be us have different immutable perspectives and what focus and politics means.

But your concept of men’s right, but the left version, ex no misogyny

@meloo

I don’t think a snapshot of one subreddit is enough to judge their core values. Perhaps your right that we just see it from different perspectives. But let me state how I perceive the mens’ rights movement:

Mens’ rights came about because feminism became so dominant that some men felt left behind. The feminist movement is almost equal parts political and social while mens’ rights is primarily social.

I think the success of a leftwing/feminist men’s movement depends on how you resolve the paradox (whether apparent or real) of the “feminist man”.

resolve the paradox (whether apparent or real) of the “feminist man”.

do you have thoughts on how to do this? Or like what i’d look like?

I’m not sure what the point would be, or what the exact plan is.

If it’s making male-only online spaces to talk about Left-Wing men’s issues, then I’m not sure what the point is, and we already have mostly-male spaces all over the internet, some of which talk about Feminism.

If the idea’s to focus on men’s issues, then we also have plenty of spaces for that already. I’ve known a few Feminists who take time to look at men’s problems (mostly women), but Feminist movements usually focus on women’s issues because the biggest problems lie there atm, at least as far as I can see (e.g. right now, Roe V Wade’s being overturned).

I’m not sure what the point would be, or what the exact plan is.

Same, but just spit balling. If the men’s right movement was absorbed into a leftwing movement, that would help boost our left causes

@fruechtchen@lemmy.ml
link
fedilink
2
edit-2
1M

As a male leftist, i’m critical about that - i think the biggest danger of such a group is that they would not be able to dismantle patriarchy and male supremacy behavior. So the danger would be: if queerfeminist activists criticize this mens group because of patriarchy, their response is “yes, thanks for the critique, we fix that” - but everything stays the same because those men care more about the feminist label and the reputation and the feeling of being feminist than the actual dismantling of male supremacy and patriarchy in leftist groups.

For instance: currently, leftwing groups also have sometimes sexual violence towards women or queer people. From experience (as a male leftist), what happens in many cases is that - especially men - have a bad/superficial understanding of patriarchy and therefore do not stand in solidarity to victims of sexual violence. Patriarchy means that it is quite likely some male friends either have been abusive in the past - or will be abusive in the future. This is a consequence from our society not explaining how good sexual consensus work, how manipulative some behavior can be, etc.

So in short: it is quite likely that those men would not held their friends accountable and talk about how patriarchy works etc, and NOT make sure that something like that (patriarchal behavior) doesn’t happen again.

tldr: as a male leftist working in this area, i am not sure if this group would be able to gain the necessary knowledge about patriarchy, sexual violence, abusive behavior, and other aspects of “toxic” masculinity.

tldr: as a male leftist working in this area, i am not sure if this group would be able to gain the necessary knowledge about patriarchy, sexual violence, abusive behavior, and other aspects of “toxic” masculinity.

It sounds like we agree that leftist men need a lot of work in this area. maybe that could be what a movement solely could be based around

but then the problem is that for instance women are excluded from such movement (probably?) -> and i think the criticism of women in such movements is very important.

so yes i agree that leftist men need to do some work in that area, but i think it is better when noone is excluded from that.

For instance, as @Grograman@sopuli.xyz said:

A lot of issues that men face are directly because of the patriarchy so dismantling it is the only way to fight for men’s rights. Not being taken seriously in sexual assaults, not being equally considered for custody, not being able to express emotions - all of these come from the bullshit patriarchal view of strong men and weak women that the patriarchy enforces. It’s all the same fight.

I think this is important to understand for all people, not only for men. and i think the quality of understanding is higher when all views are included, from all genders.

at the same time:

i recommend to read JJ Bola’s book “Mask Off : Masculinity Redefined”.

Probably a good short version is “Why toxic masculinity hurts men: JJ Bola explains all” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekPg-ZGqvb8

i think this is a good starting point in dismantling patriarchy. But still, dismantling patriarchy is very important.

Grace
link
fedilink
1
edit-2
1M

A lot of issues that men face are directly because of the patriarchy so dismantling it is the only way to fight for men’s rights. Not being taken seriously in sexual assaults, not being equally considered for custody, not being able to express emotions - all of these come from the bullshit patriarchal view of strong men and weak women that the patriarchy enforces. It’s all the same fight.

I don’t think many would be opposed, there aren’t many places for men of domestic abuse. HR will take men serious when sexually harassed. etc…

removed by mod

Men’s rights is a fundamentally reactionary movement found solely to counter the revolutionary movement of feminism. It’s just like ‘All lives matter’. Let’s change some words in your question to expose it’s absurdity

'Not the right wing All lives matter, Some kind of left version that would fundamentally be a BLM movement but with different branding. Different branding would be necessary to absorb a bunch of white people into it.

Hope this doesn’t disappoint, but if someone rebranded ‘All lives matter’ to absorb like trump supporters into basically being blm, that sounds only beneficial

removed by mod

A loosely moderated place to ask open ended questions

If your post is

  1. Open ended
  2. Not offensive
  3. Not regarding lemmy support (c/lemmy_support)
  4. not ad nauseam inducing (please make sure its a question that would be new to most members)

it’s welcome here!

  • 0 users online
  • 25 users / day
  • 92 users / week
  • 169 users / month
  • 629 users / 6 months
  • 1 subscriber
  • 679 Posts
  • 6.74K Comments
  • Modlog